poor decision in hillsborough county
As a native Virginian, and Progressive Southerner, I was embarassed to read the following in the Tampa Tribune:
A Hillsborough County proclamation honoring Confederate Gen. Robert E. Lee has angered some black leaders. “That’s a slap in the face to every African-American, Hispanic, and every minority in the county,” said Curtis Stokes, president of the Hillsborough chapter of the NAACP. The proclamation, marking today’s 200th anniversary of Lee’s birth in Virginia, also has county commissioners rethinking how they bestow such honorariums. Commission Chairman Jim Norman read the “Year of Lee” proclamation Thursday as members of the Sons of Confederate Veterans and the United Daughters of the Confederacy stood in front of the commission dais.
When I tell people in Florida that many in Virginia forgo celebrating Martin Luther King Jr. Day in order to celebrate Lee-Jackson Day they usually chuckle and make some comment about it being ridiculous or backwater. Welcome to Hillsborough County, Florida. Sad. Despite, I’m sure, many Southerners who regard Robert E. Lee as a hero, we must face the facts. Robert E. Lee did no service to this great nation. He was a traitor, no better than Benedict Arnold. Leave it to the 20th Century Republican President who pardoned Nixon to pardon Lee.
Cross Posted @ The Delightful Yank
Tags: county, Florida, government
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January 19th, 2007 at 5:29 pm
And check Blair’s typical statement:
Commissioner Brian Blair said he was surprised by the protest since the county also honors Martin Luther King Jr. without any complaints from Confederate groups.
That dude just doesn’t get it at all.
January 19th, 2007 at 6:31 pm
He was a terrorist who brought arms against the people of the United States of America. It blows my mind that people can be so redneckian as to think he deserves honor.
January 19th, 2007 at 7:33 pm
I don’t see why Florida really should honor the old guy but a traitor? He was loyal to his home, Virginia, before any national loyalty. Remember that our current strong national identity was not born until after the War. At the time Lee lived we were very much a Union of separate states. He had served the US Army for his whole life and the fact that our still very young country produced one of the finest commanders of the gunpowder age should be remembered with some amazement.
from his wiki
Lee was asked by one of his lieutenants if he intended to fight for the Confederacy or the Union, to which he replied, “I shall never bear arms against the Union, but it may be necessary for me to carry a musket in the defense of my native state, Virginia, in which case I shall not prove recreant to my duty.”
So who would have had him betray, his nation or his state?
January 19th, 2007 at 7:46 pm
As far as doing no service, aside from the lifetime of military service to the Army prior to the war he had a large part in stopping the war when it ended. Lee was the primary force that ended all thoughts of continuing the fight against the Union as a guerrilla campaign that could have delayed reconstruction for another decade.
January 19th, 2007 at 7:48 pm
Shelby Foote said it better than I:
Before the war, it was said “the United States are.” Grammatically, it was spoken that way and thought of as a collection of independent states. And after the war, it was always “the United States is,” as we say to day without being self-conscious at all. And that’s sums up what the war accomplished. It made us an “is.”
January 19th, 2007 at 8:00 pm
The same people honoring Lee, a man who led an armed rebellion against our country, are denouncing the Dixie Chicks as traitors. And for Blair to somehow compare Lee and King is mindboggling. Mouthbreather needs to sit in on one of my classes and learn a thing or two.
January 19th, 2007 at 8:11 pm
http://www.bbrianblair.com/gallery/kb/pic48bees.jpg
January 19th, 2007 at 8:24 pm
Jason, I’ve lived the “Lee Debate” my entire life. Yes, he was a gentleman, yes, Lincoln asked him to fight on his side. He was the ultimate leader of the Confederacy, regardless of his defense of our Great Commonwealth. The first AND last capitals of the Confederacy were Richmond and Danville. Both in Virginia. Even if the Confederacy had won, they would still have been wrong.
January 19th, 2007 at 10:57 pm
Being wrong doesn’t make him a traitor. Nor does it negate his significance. Honor? He certainly did not have the positive impact of King but I think it was the terrorist comment (however tongue-in-cheek it may have been) I disagreed with more than your post.
January 20th, 2007 at 12:56 am
Lee fought for what he and an entire region believed in, right or wrong. Lee fought for independence from a government he and an entire region disagreed with. Just as the USA declared independence from Britain, so did the CSA declare independence from the USA. If you put the slavery issue aside, how is that any different? In both instances, they were trying to be free from a government they disagreed with. Last I checked, Hillsborough county was still in the south, and was at one time in a confederate state. Thus it is a part of our history, and should not be swept under the rug and forgotten. I salute the county’s decision. I also salute Martin Luther King. And I am all for equal rights. That does not mean we should all turn our tails and bury our southern identity in disgrace.
January 20th, 2007 at 1:42 pm
Hey Bryan — do you think the majority of people who live in Hillsborough County connect with a ’southern identity’? I certainly don’t and am under the impression that the MAJORITY of the people here are either directly from the north or at least second generation Yanks. If I’m right, I think its rather ironic that largely due to Norman & Co.’s stupid development/growth policies set by the BOCC they have created an environment were non-natives dominate their constituency.
It’s all entirely offensive to me.
January 20th, 2007 at 2:03 pm
America is not a country that much understands or cares to remember its past. This isn’t likely to change, and it is a great shame, but the fact is there are some bits of history best left as history.
Whether Robert E Lee was a traitor, a terrorist, a gentlemen, a leader, a patriot… it doesn’t much matter. The proper way for us to remember the civil war is to remember the entire war, both sides, and what the causes were and how absolutely horrifying the war itself was.
The wrong thing to do is for any government agency to decide which of the war’s actors are heroes and which aren’t. Lee is dead. Let him rest in peace. His memory does not need honoring, his life does not need debate. In the middle of this present war-without-sacrifice (except for half a million servicemen and their families), it would be much better for us to reflect on it once meant, truly, to be a nation at war. Lee would be more appreciative of that than of some pretty words from an idiot in Tampa.
January 20th, 2007 at 3:51 pm
If anyone can explain to me how Lee (who took up arms against the United States, claiming to be a freedom fighter for a way of life they wanted to maintain) is any different from an Iraqi terrorist (who takes up arms against the United States, claiming to be a freedom fighter for a way of life they want to maintain) I would love to hear it.
Robert E. Lee = Iraqi terrorist. You cannot praise one while condemning the other, as they both stand with the same agency to action.
January 20th, 2007 at 5:03 pm
Well said Smitty.
January 20th, 2007 at 5:24 pm
I am sorry who is playing the part of the Union in Iraq?
You are still looking at it from a modern perspective which is why you are having a tough time with it. His country was Virginia, not the United States. The US was a voluntary Union of independent States that were represented by a weak Federal government, yet few would identify themselves as American prior to identifying their State of birth. This is an attitude that would largely disappear with the end of the 19th century and the proliferation of railroad travel and the mass migration of the industrial revolution, where people from all States became mixed heavily and State identities began to be overcome by that of a strong national one.
Certainly Iraqi’s certainly might see themselves in much the same way Lee did, however Lee’s training and education would not allow the intentional targeting of civilians or even the irregular nature of a guerrilla conflict. Had Lee fought for the Iraqi he would have surrendered when Baghdad fell.
He is important historically but I fail to see why the county sees a need to bestow some honor on him. I think comparing him in any way to MLK makes me think Blair might still be wearing his speedo a bit too tightly under his suit.
January 20th, 2007 at 5:31 pm
Unfortunately, there is no putting “the slavery issue aside”.
January 20th, 2007 at 10:07 pm
Of course there is. We put the issue of slavery aside when we discuss other conflicts that were fought in part to preserve it. Notably our own revolution which the southern colonies supported because the British had already outlawed slavery and they feared that they would be forced to do the same.
Texas still celebrates its split from Mexico quite publicly although the reason, in part, for it was to allow the area to be annexed as a slave state by the Union.
We cheerfully honor slave owners like Washington. Even to the point of looking at their faces every day on our currency so we have no problem ignoring his dedication to preserving slavery either.
And you didn’t answer Bryan’s question.
BTW Smitty, great comment.
January 22nd, 2007 at 5:31 am
Lee betrayed his flag, nation, alma mater, his wife and her family, and the Commonwealth of Virginia. On becoming an officer in the United States Army, he swore a solemn oath to uphold the Constitution of the United States of America. His education at the United States Military Academy at West Point, NY was paid in full by the taxpayers of the USA. He married the daughter of the richest man in Virginia, Custis, and Lee, by way of that marriage, inherited the vast Custis plantation in Arlington, VA, overlooking Washington, DC. The estate was expropriated during the Civil War to serve as the National Cemetary for loyal United States soldiers who died defending our country against Lee’s treachery. As for Lee defending Virginia, he didn’t do a very good job, since he managed to lose the northwestern one third of the state to Union forces during the first year of the war, a region that became the State of West Virginia in 1863. His betrayal also contributed to the economic devastation of the entire South, which did not begin to truly prosper until after the Civil Rights Acts of 1964 allowed all citizens to participate in our society to their full potential. If you want to honor a stalwart Virginian of that era, honor Gen. George S. Thomas, the Rock of Chickamauga, a loyal United States citizen and soldier.
January 22nd, 2007 at 7:22 am
All very good points, although without Lee the war certainly would have gone forward as would the devastation of the south, although the war would likely have been over much more quickly. I am not really sure why a county in Florida, which was only marginally involved in the war, would feel the need to honor the guy. King certainly is more worthy of a holiday or other commemoration for his positive and non-violent work.
January 22nd, 2007 at 4:15 pm
“We cheerfully honor slave owners like Washington.”
Maybe you do, but I grew up less than 5 miles from Mt. Vernon and went to school with many of his descendents. The rosy public picture of General Washington is a stretch at best. At worst, it is a the projection of the hopes and dreams of an entire nation. There is also a fundamental difference between a time when slave ownership was the norm and when it became time to disavow the practice, years after most of Europe I might add. To claim that we can put slavery aside when talking about Robert E. Lee is simply ridiculous, especially when considering the conflict for which he is best known. Lincoln put it best in a letter to Henry Pierce on April 6th, 1859:
This is a world of compensations; and he who would be no slave, must consent to have no slave. Those who deny freedom to others, deserve it not for themselves; and, under a just God, can not long retain it.
That’s not just a great quote, it applies to Lee as well.
Richard is spot on with his points about Lee. From both a military standpoint and a moral standpoint, Lee was on the wrong side of history.