A recent weekend in Orlando reminded me of the vivid difference between my hometown of Tampa and the tourist capitol of Florida that is just 75 miles away.
After the sun went down and the theme parks were all closed, we headed out to downtown Orlando for some fun. It was a good time, although the Orlando group tends to be more mainstream than what you see in Tampa. Fewer tattoos and piercings were visible on this crowd, and they seemed to be a bit older than a random selection of Ybor denizens. Of course, it IS Orlando, so a lot of the people are tourists who will avoid trouble in an unfamiliar place.
Thinking that maybe it was just my limited view, when I got home I googled as much as I could on downtown Orlando and the crime there and found very little. Try putting “Ybor” and “arrest” in a Google search and see the phone book that you get back. The most striking difference is that in the whole night I saw no fights. I didn’t even see anybody tense with that “I’m going to f-up the next person that bumps me” look in their eyes. Everybody, it seemed, was there to relax and check out the scene.
So I have to conclude that there IS a difference between the two cities’ party districts. Why is one constantly the source of pain and contention while the other appears to function more smoothly?
If you are familiar with Orlando and can offer additional information, please comment below. But here are a few that I have observed:
Orlando’s downtown area is a much smaller and thus easier to patrol with fewer officers. A Tampa cop told a relative of mine that he is typically assigned to District One, but on Friday and Saturday nights he is restricted to Ybor only. Meaning the rest of District One is short of officers on those nights. The officers assigned to Ybor tend to cluster together on Seventh Avenue in front of known trouble spots, notably the corner of 19th St and 7th ave in front of Empire and Fuel nightclubs and over between 15th and 16th by the Full Moon Saloon. I wander the back streets and alleys of Ybor a lot and rarely see a patrol here. When I do it is often a cruiser or mounted officer.
It is difficult to counteract the natural tendency to socialize but maybe it would work better to push the officers off onto 6th, 8th, and 9th avenues on foot rather than simply cluster them on the strip. Much of the trouble occurs off the main drag anyway, in the parking lots and sidestreets that are invisible from the clustered police on Seventh avenue. Just weeks ago two friends working as parking lot attendants at a dirt lot on 6th Ave were threatened by a large group of people apparently unhappy with the parking policies. The incidents we hear about now are rarely on Seventh Avenue. Maybe this is a result of opening the street to traffic again and preventing people from congregating there. Instead the problems have moved off into nearby lots, dark places with plenty of hiding spots.
That leaves looking at the clubs themselves. There are some people who argue that hip-hop clubs should be banned from Ybor. Other than being a fairly ridiculous way to permit a business it also seems a little silly that we still believe a genre of music can be blamed. Remember when heavy metal caused kids to commit suicide? Or when listening to too much country music made your sister look sexy? It was stupid then and this is stupid now. Full Moon Saloon and Luna Lounge program the same format and they do so without the problems that Empire and Fuel draw. Empire’s Ken Grossman plays the race card claiming that his clubs critics don’t like his club because of the hip-hop crowd it draws,
Grossman said he thinks neighbors’ safety concerns stem from a “black/white” mentality. When his club played techno music from 1995 to 2004 – which attracted more white patrons – he never got complaints. The complaints started when the club started attracting a hip-hop crowd.
I was at Empire all the time between 1995 and 2001 and there were few complaints during those years because there was comparatively little violence. It was a very good place to drink if you were underage since the bouncers never really enforced the drinking age as long as you didn’t cause trouble. Notice that even now the complaints about these clubs often mention the actions of the employees rather than problems with patrons. Maybe the problem really is with the management of these businesses? Maybe a more professional approach to security would have a positive effect and prevent more people from getting hurt. Heck they can cruise on over to this forum where other nightclub business people are discussing this exact problem. Some changes are already happening. Last weekend I noticed that at about 2am there was no crowd in front of Empire and nobody on the balcony. Curious, I strolled down and asked if they were closed. They were not closed but it appeared that there were far fewer people at both Empire and Fuel after 2AM, maybe because they don’t want to get caught up in the mess that these places can become. Also Luna Lounge was far more packed than usual and have doubled their visible security staff. I was searched when I went in and the security people were keeping a very close eye on the patrons.
Considering the cost of extra security as opposed to what their liability might be when something happens in the parking lot across the street I am not surprised that some club owners are being proactive and hiring additional staff before they become known as a “trouble spot”.
Not to be totally negative in this post I can report that on average the downtown Orlando scene is not as good as Ybor. We have more places playing more types of music, both DJ driven and live, more good late night shopping choices, and more great food than what I saw in Orlando. Maybe I am a bit biased.
Ryan Price
2 years ago
Jason,
I’ll be the first person to admit that downtown Orlando doesn’t always hold its own against some older/larger cities in the Southeast, but there are efforts to make downtown all that it can be. http://www.OrlandoScene.TV is a internet video show that helps those confused about what Orlando has to offer to find some cool things to do.
For geeks, I know there is an Orlando BarCamp coming up soon, which may or may not be held downtown. The Florida Creatives makes a major point of always meeting downtown, and I knew of a couple of great events happening on Church Street before it was recently auctioned off.
The whole area is growing – tons of new construction, which mainly consists of condos/apartments/housing, which downtown sorely needs. The mayor is also dedicated to bringing more arts venues to downtown, which is definitely a catalyst for new development. I agree that there is NO late-night shopping/dining to speak of aside from pizza and pitas. Hell, we don’t even have produce stands in downtown.
I’m sure I could come up with some more stuff if this text box weren’t so small, but it is just a comment.
dreaming
2 years ago
downtown orlando offers the more mature atmosphere of thornton park with its winebars and upscale restaurants. it’s connected to the downtown scene by a horde of pedicabs, perhaps an idea for 7th ave.. i have never understood how letting cars cruise 7th instead of people makes it ’safer.’ it seems very backward.
i think you are right to urge the clubs to improve their crowd control.
i also think the dirt lots of ybor are somewhat unique in the middle of a big city and the dark atmosphere makes it easier to commit trouble. the city made a big mistake building one of its two parking garages at the far end of 8th ave where no one ever goes.
ybor is a pale ghost of new orleans french quarter. yet that troubled city has never had a problem controlling the vastly biggers crowds of drunks there.
tampa is a backward place and its police are under trained and poorly led. thats another reason why they have problems in ybor which is one of their few challenges and one at which they routinely fail. remember the cops have a stake in ybor in lucrative overtime for offduty patrols. the worse they make the scene sound, the more they stand to earn in extra off duty assignments.
Rick
2 years ago
I believe if it wasnt for International Plaza, Channelside, and the many Howard Ave. choices(picture the 90’s), then Ybor would be as great as it was, and those that typically venture to the above mentioned places would be in Ybor, instead of the minor rif-raf that causes the many problems. The last time I was in Ybor for a play at the Ritz, and dinner at Centro Ybor, I wanted out of there after 11pm..too many youngins’ and partiers that were not looking to partake in the restaurants/bars, but loiter.
jason
2 years ago
I usually avoid commenting on my stuff but comparing Ybor to the Quarter is difficult. The Quarter is the main tourist draw for NOLA and is very important to the city as a whole. Especially so since the storm. Ybor does not share this economic prominence in Tampa. While the NOLA police can justify creating an entire police district to patrol the Quarter which includes its own district station on Rampart street Ybor actually sucks manpower and money from the rest of the city. Also I haven’t seen officers working off duty at businesses in Ybor in years. Does the city bring in off duty officers for regular patrol? I don’t know, do you?
jason
2 years ago
“I’m sure I could come up with some more stuff if this text box weren’t so small, but it is just a comment.”
Please feel free to make your comment longer, I appreciate it.
Mr. Bill
2 years ago
I lived for about two months in downtown Orlando about 5 years ago, my apartment was right on Church Street.
It was a super place to live. The tourists had pretty much left Church Street Station for the Disney complex stuff. There were some great places to hang out, Friday afternoons at a mexican place with an outdoor patio was great, Have a Nice Day Cafe had nickel beer nights, were several other great places that I have since forgotten. Baxters in Thornton Park was a fantastic wine bar with great food and cold, talk Tucher drafts that were killer. As my custom, I walked everywhere and never felt threatened.
While I am usually in Ybor a couple of times a week, I try to get out before 11. Just feel better about it that way.
Pam
2 years ago
Off duty cops are hired by bars for security (inside, outside, door security). They don’t work the street except in front of the bar they are hired by. Reports are they make anywhere from $25-$50 an hour off duty depending on the bar that hires them. Ybor bars are now required to have off duty cops as security, the number of off duty is one per certain number people I think. Many bars I understand are grandfathered in (in business prior to requirement). One of the “problem bars” in Ybor currently owes the City of Tampa $15,000 in back off duty cop fees. The City was not going to send any more off duty cops there then realized the last thing anyone wanted was zero security in Fuel. That’s asking for trouble so they still send security. Like blackmailing the City in my opinion.
Ybor IS getting better. It just takes time and decent people coming to patronize us, give us another chance if you haven’t been lately. We don’t want to loose our Ybor. Cool new places are opening up. The residents and RESPONSIBLE business owners are not going to allow the “just out for a buck, don’t give a damn about the damage my business may cause to Ybor” to continue.
Jose
2 years ago
“Why is one constantly the source of pain and contention while the other appears to function more smoothly?”
It is a complicated answer that lies in the history of Ybor in the past 20 years. The blame lies in the city council of the 80’s and 90’s. Some of the blame lies on Dick Greco when he was our mayor. Some of it in the club owners of today (i.e: Fuel). It also lies the real estate topology of the area and the demands of our local entertainment economy.
First off let me mention: Ybor city is NOT a party district. It is a NATIONAL HISTORIC LANDMARK district. Before there were bars, before there were tattoo shops, Ybor was a mixed-use, 24-7 neighborhood with a vibrant economy and rich social atmosphere. It was not the single-use party district that most associate Ybor with.
In the 80’s and 90’s when interest in Ybor began again, there huge expectations. Suddenly, the row of dead empty buildings on 7th had become alive again. Hundreds of thousands of people were suddenly coming to Ybor from the entire region to have fun and spend money. It was good for the city’s economy as tourist attraction, it was great for the business owners, it was great for the image of Tampa as a whole. Everyone was winning.
What our leaders failed to see is that they had the opportunity to bring Ybor back as a mixed-use, 24-7 livable community again. They were blinded by the success of the bars, and handed wet-zone permits to anyone who wanted one. The area became over saturated with a single type of business. It made the economy of the neighborhood incredibly fragile. They also failed to provide strict rules to solve problems associated with clubs (crime, underage drinking, parking).
Fast forward to late 90’s early 00’s. The area starts to become notorious for crime while other areas in town open new acts. Money stops coming to Ybor and starts going elsewhere. All that remains are clubs that attract a college crowd or a lower income crowd. The area, being surrounded by lower income neighborhoods, is frequently visited by people who may be more inclined to commit a crime.
All of these things together form the Ybor of today. Thankfully people are starting to realize how important it is to have DIVERSITY in the neighborhood to make it successful. I think Ybor will be as great as it once was in the future. Changes are coming to Ybor, including new retailers and residential development. But it will take the support of our current city leaders, the business owners, and new residents to get there.
Kim
2 years ago
I am sure you have heard about people who enable others to be wreckless and foolhardy. These people are called enablers our local government enables the people coming to ybor to act like animals on the weekend. There is not enough people enforcing good behavior and to many reinforcing bad.