I just had coffee and great conversation with Dave Rothacker of Rothacker Reviews. The topics were all over the place, but among the most interesting thoughts that stuck out was his assertion that those of us in Tampa Bay are willing to accept an inferior product or service.
Dave says that more than any other place (even Orlando), consumers in the Tampa Bay market simply do not demand quality.
I’ve noticed that we can’t really build bridges very well, that sewer pipes aren’t working as they should, and that our drought-resistant assets are not very helpful during this current drought. Yet we keep them all in business.
But beyond those big-ticket items, we’ll eat toast that isn’t toasted and a steak done too well, we’ll suck it up when offended by others, and won’t bother to file an official complaint with those businesses that truly screw us.
John
11 months ago
It’s always – absolutely ALWAYS – about the cost. Let alone the quality.
You see it in the politics, you see it with planning, you see it in the day to day choices by the citizens… You get what you pay for… be that with service, be that with big ticket items, be that with the day to day quality of life…
I don’t think anyone expects to pay for anything around here.
Misc
11 months ago
It’s socio-economic and it’s part of Tampa’s history.
Unlike other places like West Palm Beach and Miami, Tampa was settled by poor crackers and poor immigrants. It’s never been a meritocracy, it’s always clannish, favoring familiarity over merit, hence the entrenched good ‘ol boy system.
One thing that poor immigrants and poor crackers had in common was a desire to make a quick buck, by any means necessary, often cutting corners to do it. Hence Tampa’s sorted past with Wall, Trafficante, Nuccio et al and the cigar city mafia, this “attitude” lives on today.
Look around, you see this quick buck mentality played out in every aspect of Tampa today.
The old maxim regarding learning ones history or be doomed to be repeat it ad nauseum is played out over and over in the Cigar City.
Nope
11 months ago
I do see it, there is no concern for quality and substance in politics, governance, or in the business community. We accept subpar and wear it with pride as being part of what it means to be “Tampa”. We applaud failure and act happy.
wow misc is smart
11 months ago
Id just like to personally thank misc in post number 2 for the comments, its such a good description of what I have observed in this area.
Thank you for helping with just the right words and thoughts to define it.
Nope
11 months ago
Here here, well said and right on target.
dave
11 months ago
Thanks for pointing this out Tommy. I do believe that your guests have said it better than I.
I can’t tell you how much this means to me…thinking all of the while, was I the only person thinking this way??
Does anyone else feel this way? If so, what can we do about it?
George
11 months ago
Speaking as a native, I would have to disagree with the clannish and cracker comments. The vast majority of the citizens in Tampa are from somewhere else, so I would lay the blame for these failures on them, since they are the majority. A thousand different ideas, with few if any willing to see anybody else’s view point, all combining to vapor lock the processes. And let us not forget that the individuals who moved down here did it for two reasons, the climate, the low cost of living. Basically those that immigrated to Tampa are cheap, and they don’t want to pay for anything, so you end up with the government you deserve and the service you are willing to pay for. There is an old saying that states that a Yankee comes to Tampa with two white shirts and a hundred dollar bill and doesn’t change any of them until he goes back north.
dave
11 months ago
Just so we are perfectly clear here, the question that I bring up is for everyone living here. I don’t care about where they were born, what color they are, if they are poor or rich.
Nope
11 months ago
The Tampa Born caln blames everyone else through Geroge’s words? Is that the right way to take Geroge’s comments?
Misc
11 months ago
George:
I mention poor crackers and poor immigrants based on what I’ve read.
In “Tampa Before the Civil War” (http://www.amazon.com/Before-History-Center-Reference-Library/dp/1879852640/ref=sr_1_2?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1239902058&sr=8-2)
it’s obvious the die was cast regarding what type of city Tampa would be in 1840-1850. The officers at Fort Brooke (now Tampa) circa 1840 hated the Tampa natives as they were cheap and lazy and shiftless and lacked character. Other books describe the destitution of the immigrants moving here later on.
The “influx of Yankees” didn’t happen in Tampa until around 1900, long after the die was cast. Some northerners were probably attracted by the generally unsavory character of Tampa circa 1900.
I think the more recent influx of northerners (50s on) has helped the place from drowning in its own provincialism.
George
11 months ago
Well, Misc, you are welcome to your opinion. I don’t think anybody is going to change you mind. BTW, you proved my point.
I love Tampa!!
11 months ago
As a native in Tampa, I agree with George on some parts, and Misc., reading your responses, that sum it up as a problem with two sets of cultures/classes is pretty low.
A lot of immigrants had set up sophisticated social clubs that would later become Spanish Club, the Italian Club, Cuban Club and so-on (check out Ybor). A lot of these clubs had their own monies, their own financial, job referral and medical care. A lot of immigrants, or people who were displaced, had to looked out for themselves, especially in a place with little infrastructure. And they did on their own. I wouldn’t call it clan. It takes money, effort and ingenuity to get going in a place you are trying to do business, in an area with little municipal support. Some of these newcomers to Tampa were pretty wealthy because they knew or responded well to an economy was quickly collapsing post war.
In the late 1800’s Henry Plant decided to set up Hotel (UT) along with his Rail Road system. A northerner, who really increased business in Tampa, and brought even more trade and boost in local economics. Crap, look at UT…there is nothing like it…even to this day.
Tampa also boomed in the 50’s because of cheap suburbia developments, business and vacation ventures (I know this because my parents done business here). In the 60’s the interstate was started and basically drained the remains out of our downtown area (which was already suffering from failed industries and terrible pollution). 70’s and 80’s, Tampa heavily markets the stadium, the international airport, other civic achievements, and tries to pull anyone and anything to set up shop. Building a stadium (old Bucs), interstate projects and upgraded an airport is not ‘cheap’. But Pulte, other developers and bad real estate sets in, and crappy planned communities for new comers are built in the prime farm and sensitive lands. And now it all about space and cost from this point forward. Interstate keeps getting extended, reaching areas with lower cost of living and cheap developers keeps thriving. The quest to go cheap has begun…we built the roads to lead the way.
Anyway, my point is that you are usually going have gangsters in port cities or at least some crime to note. Just like you are going to have immigrates or newcomers in port cites too. But I would say that cheap in Tampa, is more of a modern ‘development’ issue than a historic. Cheap is a response that comes from recent development infrastructure by private companies, poor leadership in local governing agencies and polices that should have been more careful and FDOT’s response to a growing community. We just don’t how to take care of ourselves anymore. And with strings of bad leadership, we have been cast out, so long, we don’t know how.
Misc
11 months ago
Uh, I’m a fifth generation Floridian.
Most of the immigrants were not initially wealthy or educated and were taken advantage of via boleta or whatever, first by Wall, then the mafia.
Sure we had Plant, but did he live here? Where is our Bertha Honore’ Potter-Palmer and John Rngling that Sarasota had, how about all of the millionaires that made West Palm Beach what it is, and sure we had a 1920s land boom like Miami, but where is our Coral Gables? (please…don’t say Hyde Park)
I am not glorifying the 1950s and 1960s as a planning heyday, far from it, for Florida, that was the 1920s. But 1950s and 1960s planning, the birth of sprawl, was bad everywhere, not just here, but not everywhere is cheap. I am talking about the 1950s-60s as the birth time of USF, the environmental movement, Cape Canaveral, etc.. Oh, and Florida Mid-Century Modern architecture IS considered very hip and cool these days.
“you are usually going to have gangsters in port cities” can be easily disproven by a survey of port cities.
Tampa has been a backwater for a very long time folks, and we’ve consistently let Tampa off the hook for years, mediocrity and cutting corners is not good enough any more, many of us these days want to hold the bar high, and perhaps one day it can be cleared.
I love Tampa!!
11 months ago
It is a no-brainer, in the past there was a lot of ‘organized’ crimes at ports because…accessibility.
And many buildings were left behind… Kress, UT, the social clubs, the factories, etc. This was the infrastructure that was reused and continued business for some time. And some of these buildings are still being reused to keep local business thriving and/or to provide residence.
5th gen or not, I think you need to re-check Tampa. Tampa needs a complete overall in leadship, from the county all the way down to council.
Nope
11 months ago
Georege:
So Tampa would be just fine except for all the interlopers who brought their education and money into town. What do you hate more, the issues Tampa is facing or the people who point them out?
Meredith
11 months ago
“Hold on you two! New Shimmer is a floor wax, AND it’s a dessert topping!”
Old SNL fans might recognize this same dispute…I think the problem of Tampa apathy is due to BOTH clannish social structure and transplanted Yankees. We cannot squarely blame Yankees or Phoenix would be as backward as Tampa. Nor can we squarely blame the immigrant and cracker populations who were able to build historical Tampa with at least *some* redeeming features.
On the other hand, northern transplants don’t want to support public schools if their kids aren’t in them, and the good old boy system has prevented Tampa from growing into the kind of city it could be.
Bergerman
11 months ago
What makes you think this problem is worse around Tampa Bay? People in Orlando demand higher quality? Really? Is this based on something other than some sort of vague gut feeling? The traffic there is worse, the restaurants seem to be dominated by chains, the elected officials are about as progressive and enlightened as ours. As long as Florida is used as a pass-thru for rootless wanderers, it’s going to be hard to improve things because real change takes time and too many people here are in too big a hurry to go somewhere else. And complain a lot while they’re here.
Misc
11 months ago
Meredith, I would say that is a good compromise.
For the record, and addressing “I heart Tampa”, Tampa’s historic preservation record is abysmal, look at old photos and postcards of Tampa, it’s heartbreaking – we had mass transit, beautiful and monumental architecture, tree-lined walkable boulevards, incredible planning. We destroyed it all in the name of progress and we now have a shell of what “was” Tampa. Most of this was built in the 1920s, which was Tampa’s, and Florida’s, zenith.
Misc
11 months ago
Who mentioned Orlando as a model?
Tino
11 months ago
I’m probably going to come off sounding like a dick, but having moved from a “large city up north” here a decade ago, I think it is due to the much lower education levels of Floridians, which perpetuates itself with every successive generation.
This is a state where its citizens think that $3,000 a year for a university eduction is TOO MUCH. Don’t believe me? Look at the editorials whenever there is an article talking about raising the embarrassingly low tuition costs. People are threatening to MOVE if they raise the college tuition to a level of, say, a typical daycare center for 3 year olds. I’m not sure where they will go. Africa? Rural china?
You get what you pay for. I moved here because the cost of living (housing, transportation, taxes, sports season tickets) is less than half of the cost of my old city. I accept the fact that if I want culture or really good shopping, I’m going to have to get on a plane and go somewhere else, but that’s just a part of the overall equation. I don’t complain — I vote with my wallet.
Nope
11 months ago
Meredith – I think you made an excellent observation and insightful analysis.
Bergerman
11 months ago
Misc, who mentioned Orlando? It’s at the top of the post: “Dave says that more than any other place (even Orlando), consumers in the Tampa Bay market simply do not demand quality.”
I heart Tampa
11 months ago
Misc., people are starting to realize that preservation Tampa stinks but I’ve sat in historic committees, have friends who have restored buildings, volunteered in urban committees and just helped restored a 1918’s building and put that use for a downtown business. A lot of people do care and will do something about it. The problem misc., some people (especially people in the county and council) look at problems and do nothing. Some revert to the whole north/south thing as reason for all failures in Florida. Some just don’t really care. Now, we are trying to catch up to Sarasota for their on-going efforts in green building and downtown St. Pete or their local marketplace and pedestrian friendly atmosphere. I attribute most of the failures towards bad leadership and the lack of hustle for Tampa to stay modern and competitive. There are plenty cities in the north and SOUTH we compete. And for the record I know the South, I lived in GA, done business in the Carolinas and I have spend some time in the north, and even the west too. And it didn’t took me long to realize, at pretty young age, the true problems we have in this town. And I am glad to be back to offer my change.
Bergerman, yes, I dont like Orlando…it is a nightmare over there.
Clyde
11 months ago
Tommy,
It isn’t just Tampa, it’s Florida. Because of:
a. ignorance
b. apathy
c. culture of corruption
d. ole boy network
e. southern nativism and xenophobia,
and, probably a couple of other things I can’t come up with right now. Considering how we look after things, I don’t expect much to change.
Meredith
11 months ago
It would be cool if we could brainstorm ways to improve the situation. The good old boy network benefits a few insiders at the cost of the rest of us. It hurts ALL OF US who are not in the good old boy network. The good old boys steal our money, curtail our choices, wreck Tampa’s reputation and future. What shall we do about that?
Transplanted northerners who come here for easy living without any civic responsibility — these folks ride on the backs of all who work hard to improve Tampa. They don’t want to pay for the infrastucture they use, they don’t want to help educate the work force that results in a stronger tax base, or they don’t get involved in their communities because they’re just staying for the winter. What shall we do about that?
John
11 months ago
Meredith: It’s a catch 22. We CAN do something about it by getting involved, by making informed decisions and speaking out against things that are wrong…
…Or we could write snarky responses to news items of more corruption, apathy, and the status-quo.
It’s both sides of the bay, not just Tampa. Tampa’s got problems and Pinellas has them too with thanks to the same type of logic and provincial divisions in government. For how small the Pinellas county penninsula is, there is a demand for separation from each other politically…
Clans. And I’m not talking about partisanship. I’m talking us-and-them government that fights other local governments and wastes people’s time.
But that says nothing about overall low-standards, does it?
Nope
10 months ago
“We can’t solve problems by using the same kind of thinking we used when we created them.” – Albert Einstein
Seemed fitting as it made me think back to this disucssion.
Misc
10 months ago
Or, “If all you’ll ever do is all you’ve ever done, then all you’ll ever get is all you’ve ever gotten”. – Zora Neale Hurston
Or something like that.